Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/15/2001 08:02 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 110-SOCIAL SECURITY # & DRIVER'S LICENSES Number 2089 CHAIR COGHILL announced the next order of business as HOUSE BILL NO. 110, "An Act relating to driver's licenses and instructional permits; and providing for an effective date." CHAIR COGHILL explained that HB 110 is simply saying that a person's Social Security number will not be printed on the face of that person's driver's license. The person will still have to give the Social Security number when applying for a license. Number 2154 RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative Coghill, came forward to testify. She began by noting that the sponsor had considered including a provision related to people who have rescinded their Social Security number. However, after being advised by Social Security officials that no numbers have been rescinded, the sponsor chose not to address that issue. MS. MOSS explained that HB 110 conforms to the federal requirement but goes no further. The federal requirement is that a person applying for a driver's license must either provide his/her Social Security number or sign an affidavit that he/she does not have one. Compliance with the federal requirement means HB 110 poses no threat of losing federal funds. Number 2216 CHAIR COGHILL added that the Social Security number is required on a commercial driver's license, and HB 110 does not affect that. He then noted that HB 110 says, "A license may not display," so that a person who wants the number displayed can have that option. MS. MOSS said there had been discussion about the use of a driver's license as identification when applying for a hunting or fishing license or when cashing a check. A driver's license is shown to many people in a lifetime, and [not displaying the Social Security number on the face of the license] is just a matter of privacy. CHAIR COGHILL said privacy is one of the main reasons he introduced HB 110. The continuing trend toward using the Social Security number as a main identifier is something that he has resisted, and he thinks HB 110 is a good move [to protect privacy in relation to that trend]. Number 2283 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES asked if a driver's license currently has the person's Social Security numbers on it. CHAIR COGHILL replied that the number now is "right on the face of the license." Number 2309 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES spoke in support of HB 110, noting that there is even a larger exposure. She said it is distressing to her to hear the Social Security number read over the police scanner when a driver has been stopped. She spoke of the danger of [identity theft], an unauthorized person's use of another person's identification, and related a personal anecdote involving a check for $4,600 that an unknown person cashed using her account number. CHAIR COGHILL noted that the threat is probably greater now than in the past. Number 2463 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS shared the sponsor's concerns, but asked if HB 110 would in any way impact police in a negative way or "hamstring the legal system." CHAIR COGHILL didn't think so based on contact with Public Safety officials. MS. MOSS referred to a discussion with Del Smith, Deputy Commissioner of Public Safety, related to a complaint about Social Security numbers being broadcast on the police radios. Mr. Smith told officers not to do so, and to call the police dispatcher via telephone if the number was needed to establish identity. CHAIR COGHILL added that there is a driver's license number, which he much prefers to use as an identifier. The driver's license number gives police access to other information, including the person's Social Security number. The combination of the license number and the photograph is sufficient for identification. Number 2579 REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked if there was any reason police would need a Social Security number if they had a person in custody. MS. MOSS said the Social Security number is on file with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), and that the information is readily available to police. Number 2611 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES wondered what would happen if a police officer needed that information at 2 a.m. and couldn't telephone DMV. He shared the concern about possibly hindering the legal system. MS. MOSS said she didn't think being without a Social Security number at 2 a.m. would hinder prosecution. "It's not an ID; your driver's license is an ID." CHAIR COGHILL again emphasized that the driver's license number is the key to the other information. Number 2655 REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked how police determine if a person has outstanding warrants in other states. "Do they use the Social Security number to track that or do they use the driver's license number? It seemed to him that the number of a driver's license issued in Alaska wouldn't lead back to records in other states. CHAIR COGHILL said that a valid Alaska driver's license would serve as the key to the other information, and there are other ways of identifying a person who does not have a driver's license. Number 2709 REPRESENTATIVE WILSON requested clarification that the only effect of HB 110 would be that the next time she renewed her driver's license, the new license would not have her Social Security number on it. MS. MOSS added that it would remain an option: a person who requested it could have the Social Security number put on the license. REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if DMV still was going to ask her for her Social Security number. MS. MOSS deferred that question to the next witness. Number 2740 CHARLES R. HOSACK, Deputy Director, Division of Motor Vehicles, testified by teleconference. He testified that Section 1 of HB 110 mirrors DMV's current policy: the Social Security number is required to get a driver's license, and a person who does not have a Social Security number can provide an affidavit to that effect. Current administrative policy simply is put into statute by HB 110. MR. HOSACK noted that Section 2 of HB 110 would change current practice because it says the license "may not" display a Social Security number. Those words mean that DMV does not have permission to put the number on the license. Currently, the DMV retains that option. "If the person doesn't object, we print it on there. If they do object, we just suppress the printing. So what we'll do with Section 2 is we'll just suppress the printing of all Social Security numbers on noncommercial licenses." Number 2803 MR. HOSACK volunteered some information in response to Representative Hayes' questiom about whether HB 110 will affect law enforcement. Mr. Hosack explained that the information in DMV files is available to all state troopers and, all city police. Whenever an officer calls the police dispatcher, the dispatcher can use the computer to access the DMV information 24 hours a day, seven days a week. If a person has an out-of-state license, law enforcement also has access to a national telecommunications network that allows them to check licenses or information from other states. They can either go to a particular state or they can do a 50-state broadcast. This would bring back any information on wants or warrants. Number 2855 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked if HB 110 would create any type of problem for an officer stopping somebody who had a record or an outstanding warrant. MR. HOSACK said it would not. The Social Security number is down in about fourth or fifth place among identifiers that officers use. It is an additional piece of information, but they already have that information accessible on the computer system. He thought there might be a problem with using the driver's license for commercial transactions, such as cashing a check. Number 2922 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES related an experience her husband had had when he lost his billfold with both his driver's license and his Social Security card in it. She cautioned that people should not carry both of them because those two pieces of identification can be used for identity fraud. CHAIR COGHILL said that is one of the reasons he does not think people should use the Social Security number for identification purposes. Number 2979 REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked ... TAPE 01-13, SIDE B REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked if the Social Security would play an important role in tracking a forgery. MR. HOSACK replied that although DMV requires that license applicants provide a Social Security number, in most cases, DMV does not verify that number. Only recently has the Social Security Administration allowed states to verify that information, and it is a "cumbersome hookup." REPRESENTATIVE FATE then surmised that not having a Social Security number on the face of the driver's license really wouldn't make much difference in an investigation of a forgery. MR. HOSACK confirmed that [having the number on the license] would not make much difference because it is "very difficult to get an accurate verification from [the] Social Security Administration." Number 2873 KEVIN SHORES, Assistant Attorney General, Human Services Section, Department of Law, explained that he works in the Child Support Enforcement Division. CHAIR COGHILL asked if not having a Social Security number on the face of the driver's license would have any major effect on Mr. Shores' area of purview. MR. SHORES testified that the Child Support Enforcement Division (CSED) does not have any problem with HB 110. The requirement in federal law is very clear that every state child support agency must have access to that Social Security number. It is important to be able to track people in other states because Social Security numbers would appear in divorce, domestic relations documents, death certificates. But federal law also is clear that the number just has to be on the application material. He said CSED would access the information in much the same way as would a police dispatcher, through DMV records that include the Social Security number. Number 2832 REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if it is true that people are required to carry their Social Security card at all times. CHAIR COGHILL thought that was a federal question that would need to be answered by someone from the Social Security Administration. Number 2698 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES mentioned that she recently found the old, hand-typed Social Security card she was issued when she changed her name by marriage. At the bottom, it says, "Not to be used for identification purposes." Number 2778 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES offered a conceptual amendment: "On page 2, Line 16, I would like to change the 'may' to 'shall'" so that DMV could put the Social Security number on a driver's license or not do so, according to the licensee's request. CHAIR COGHILL objected for purposes of discussion. MR. HOSACK commented that the way the bill is written, the "may not" has the effect of "shall not," and means DMV cannot display the Social Security number. Current practice is that it is at the licensee's option, and if the licensee objects, DMV suppresses the printing of the number. REPRESENTATIVE HAYES asked how to go about maintaining the option that is currently in place. He was concerned that HB 110 would take away the licensee's option. CHAIR COGHILL said the "shall not" would assure that option. Number 2698 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES objected, "only because ... if you're not consistent in what you do, you open the door for error." She noted that applicants for a vehicle license have the option to keep their license information from being given out other than for official use. She wondered how many people have signed and said they don't want to do that. Because the licensee has to object, that licensee may not even be aware that the option exists. Number 2652 REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD noted that in his job as an ironworker, he is employed by many different contractors in the course of a year, sometimes for only two or three days at a time. Each time he has to sign the paperwork to get a new job, he has to present two forms of identification to show that he is not an illegal alien. One of those is his driver's license with the Social Security number on it and the other is his Social Security card. He wondered if not having the Social Security number on the driver's license would make it insufficient identification for that purpose. CHAIR COGHILL said a person will not get a driver's license without providing a Social Security number on the application, so anyone seeing the driver's license will be assured that the holder has citizenship and can be identified positively. MR. HOSACK said that is correct. He noted that Social Security will not allow DMV to issue a driver's license number to a foreign alien who is in the country and does not have work status, but there is nothing on the face of the driver's license to indicate that is the case. CHAIR COGHILL surmised that if the [applicant for a job] is required to have two pieces if identification, then the person's not having work status would become apparent. MR. HOSACK said aliens who have work status usually produce other identification, such as a passport and a [work] status card issued by the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. CHAIR COGHILL said that further makes his point that he doesn't want the Social Security number to be the main identifier. The fact that the person who holds a driver's license has his/her picture on it and makes a sworn affidavit when making application for the license would be sufficient for him. Number 2505 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS observed that the discussion had been very interesting and he appreciates that. However, he was "still looking for some definitive comment from either ... [the Department of] Public Safety or from the attorney general's office saying that this in no way causes them any difficulty in finding convicted felons ... or causes them any problems." CHAIR COGHILL said he didn't think to get the Department of Safety to testify because the driver's license number provides access to a complete ID check, the DMV records. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS appreciated what Chair Coghill was saying but said he wanted to hear someone in an official position "absolutely say, 'This does not cause us any trouble.'" CHAIR COGHILL volunteered to delay action on HB 110 in order to get that assurance. Number 2422 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES didn't understand why the applicant for a driver's license couldn't just check whether he/she did or didn't want the Social Security number to appear on the driver's license. He didn't understand "why we are taking that option away from everybody for the sake of some people who understandably might not want their Social Security number on their license." CHAIR COGHILL noted that there was backup material with his sponsor statement, "using the Social Security number as more important than the picture-positive ID, and the fact that Social Security numbers have been used in identity theft so much in our society, I think it would be wise for us not to have that on the face of the driver's license .... That is the whole purpose for this. If the Social Security number becomes the main issue on having a driver's license, then I think we have gone 'way too far in the wrong direction." REPRESENTATIVE HAYES understood what Chair Coghill was saying, but, "You're taking the option away from me, Joe Citizen. That's why I'm curious why not just have one application...." CHAIR COGHILL wasn't sure he wanted to debate it at this time, but acknowledged that a person was free to give his/her Social Security number to anyone he or she wants. "I'm just asking let's not put it on the driver's license." Number 2320 REPRESENTATIVE FATE thought the main question was whether or not there is an impediment to a quick identification of criminals. If there is an option, then that option has not been exercised in the past. I didn't seem to him that the driver's license itself as shown to the officer "would have that much of a play in determining criminality until such time as they was called in and his application and his other records are looked at in the computer." Number 2216 MR. HOSACK was reluctant to speak for the Department of Public Safety, but he knew the information on the DMV computers is available to Public Safety. The officer who actually makes the stop will be looking at the person's license and the picture of the person on it. "He will have the driver's license numbe,. even if [the license] doesn't have the Social Security number. In most cases, they will call that in to a dispatcher if they have radio access, and the dispatcher will confirm that yes, this information is correct, just in case a person has a completely phony license.... That dispatcher will also have the Social Security number that's recorded on the computer file, even if it isn't printed on ... [the face of the license]." REPRESENTATIVE FATE said that partially answered his question. The other part of the question was the immediate identification of the criminal through the driver's license relative to having or not having a Social Security number on it. Number 2120 MS. MOSS explained that the Social Security number is accessible to a state trooper through the computer. Regarding the option portion of the issue, "The problem today is that a person applying for a driver's license doesn't know that [not having the Social Security number on the face of the license] an option. They think it's required." Number 2103 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES rescinded his amendment, but reaffirmed that he thinks there should be a place on the application where the applicant can check off whether or not he/she wants the Social Security number on the license, or a that a notice about that option should be posted in the DMV office. CHAIR COGHILL agreed with Representative Hayes except for the fact that he does not want to see the Social Security number on the face of the driver's license. "The ... reason is not just the choice of the individual, but ... putting it in a position where it could be misused." Number 2060 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES wished Deputy Commissioner Del Smith of the Department of Public Safety could testify. She also said she was convinced that HB 110 "wasn't going to do a thing to change the [impressive systems for] identification of the person" that are now available to the Department of Public Safety. "I'm perfectly comfortable that with the driver's license number, they have all they need to know." Number 1963 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES observed, "I believe we're making a statement here that the government of Alaska doesn't have a right to right to utilize your Social Security number for this purpose.... this is not a good government policy." She said she thinks it is true that a lot of people do not know what their options are. Number 1915 CHAIR COGHILL requested an amendment to correct a drafting error in HB 110 on Page 2, Line 24. Chair Coghill wished to delete the July effective date and to make the act effective immediately. Number 1883 REPRESENTATIVE HAYES objected for purposes of discussion. REPRESENTATIVE WILSON said she did not have an objection, but thought DMV probably needed some time to make the change. CHAIR COGHILL said any time an immediate change is made, the [agency involved] just begins the process of making the change. MS. MOSS reminded the committee that the policy already is in effect and would require no change. REPRESENTATIVE HAYES withdrew his objection. Number 1830 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS said he appreciated the discussion so far, and "if everything that has been said is true, then I have no problem with this [HB 110]. But I just think it's an error not to have direct contact with either the attorney general's office or [the Department of] Public Safety. I'd like to hear absolute confirmation from them that this causes them no difficulty." He asked if there was any reason why action could not be delayed until that could be obtained. CHAIR COGHILL said, "We are in no big hurry." MS. MOSS pointed out that the State Affairs Standing Committee is primarily a policy committee and that HB 110 next will go to the House Judiciary Standing Committee. She volunteered to make sure that Deputy Commissioner Smith was present to answer questions in the Judiciary Committee meeting. CHAIR COGHILL asked the preference of the committee. Number 1759 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS said if there was no reason to hurry, he would really like to be assured before voting. CHAIR COGHILL replied, "That's what we'll do." He volunteered to ask the Department of Public Safety to answer the question that had been raised about quick and effective criminal identification. CHAIR COGHILL stated that action on HB 110, as amended, would be deferred to a later meeting. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS expressed appreciation for the chair's holding HB 110 until all concerns could be answered. CHAIR COGHILL said he would try to arrange for the Department of Public safety to testify on HB 110 on February 20. [HB 110 was HEARD AND HELD.]
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